Curse

Karate Jesus · Oct 02, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Let's face it. Some GW skills have just been nerfed and forgotten, but probably the most noticeable of these is the Avatar of Grenth.
I don't want to rant, so I'll get to the point.

I think AoG should be split for PvE and PvP, BUT viable in both.

For example, instead of making AoG unblockable against enchanted foes, make it unblockable against Hexed foes in PvP.

Pros: Makes sense. Grenth is the god of death, so hexes kinda seem like his forte. Not too unbalanced. Sure hexes are meta, but dervs have very few hexes, so they would have to reach into their secondary or have a heavy hex team.

Cons: Possibly too unbalanced. I'll face it, it probably could be exploited.

And what about PvE?

All the other forms have some type of either health, energy, or armor gain and some type of +dmg, condition or hex removal, or IMS, so give AoG something similar.

Maybe something like, every time you hit with an attack skill you sacrifice 2% of your max health, but hit for +10 cold dmg. Make sense?
and
Every time an enemy dies nearby, you are healed for 10 health. Idk about that one, but I can't think of something else in Grenth's characteristics.

Either way, please Anet, at least fix it so it actually does what it says (AoG doesn't do cold dmg, like it claims to).

Axel Zinfandel · Oct 02, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Technically speaking, AoG would be more logical vs enchanted foes. Unblockable vs Enchanted foes is pretty much like smiting the good people :P

As for PvE I sign whole heartedly, as well as a change to avatar of Balthazar.

Luminarus · Oct 02, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Unblockable is a similar idea to + damage...

Also I think its fine as it is, most blockability comes from enchants, bar a couple of war stances.

The reason it isnt used is because avatars need to be OP to be worth it due to 50% upkeep. Well atleast thats my opinion

Karate Jesus · Oct 02, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Unblockable is a similar idea to + damage...

Also I think its fine as it is, most blockability comes from enchants, bar a couple of war stances.

The reason it isnt used is because avatars need to be OP to be worth it due to 50% upkeep. Well atleast thats my opinion

The problem is that most other forms are pretty meta in pvp (except AoB). AoM+draw conditions is used a lot in GvG. AoD+heals is used a lot in TA/RA/etc. AoL is used a lot in RA/AB, a lot of the time by dagger dervs. And for the most part AoB is decent in PvE (not great, but decent).

Also, AoG is still terrible because it doesn't even do cold dmg. Even if it did cold dmg and you could go D/E with conjure frost you might think you'd kick some monk's ass, but [Disciplined Stance] is meta and so is [Shield Bash]. So they'll block you anyway.

I just hate it when an elite skill relies on others to do it's job. Even [Fox's Promise] doesn't do that. Unblockable wh/Hexed makes more sense to me.

I must be the only one still a little pissed off that AoG is useless huh?

Mordiego · Oct 02, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I must be the only one still a little pissed off that AoG is useless huh?

I guess so...

Most ppl consider AoG pretty good and thus not requireing any changes... heck... it's the best looking Avatar too.

Karate Jesus · Oct 02, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordiego

I guess so...

Most ppl consider AoG pretty good and thus not requireing any changes... heck... it's the best looking Avatar too.

It is the best looking avatar, that's why I think it needs to be changed. If everyone else thinks that unblockability against enchanted foes is great in PvE, then I must be wrong, but I'm assuming that most people would prefer to use ANY other derv form in pve.

Also....it still doesn't do cold damage.

Deadshot Seven · Oct 03, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

....Wastrels Collapse.
That is all.
(Although they need to fix shatter enchantment...does 100 damage even when you don't have an enchantment on you)

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I must be the only one still a little pissed off that AoG is useless huh?

Oh no, my friend, I LOVED the old AoG skill. I want it back, badly. It was the best counter for me against those annoying invinci builds in AB. Was somewhat useful in PvE.

Idk which one of the two it got nerfed for, but it wasn't for both, that I know.

I think that it should be reverted back to it's old form for one, and the current form kept for the one that it got changed for.

The reason why I must go against your hex suggestion is this:

Each Avatar form specializes in something, usually countering something and gaining something.

Balthazar:
Gain: Armor and IMS
Counter: Undead

Dwayna:
Gain: Healing
Counter: Hexes

Melandru:
Gain: Max Health + Earth Damage
Counter: Conditions

Lyssa:
Gain: Energy
Counter: Casting

Grenth:
Gain: Cold Damage
Counter: Enchantments

Hexes already have an avatar to counter. Grenth doesn't counter Enchantments well enough, imo, with how it is, and it has far from a good gain. Avatar of Grenth is by far the least powerful Avatar, however it shares the longest duration *along with Balthazar and Lyssa*.

Avatar of Grenth is in need of a buff, and the bug of no cold damage fixed.

As for your second suggestion (the one for PvE) it doesn't deal with enchantments and sacing life? wth? It would be more like grenth to steal life.

Turbobusa · Oct 03, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

I like the PvP version a lot more than the current one.
As for dwayna already having an effect on hexes, it is not the same at all. Dwayna counters hexes cast on you, grenth has an effect on foes hexed. One is defensive, the other offensive.

If it were to stay with an enchantment clause, at least make it have an effect if you are enchanted, atm it's pure luck.

MithranArkanere · Oct 03, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

[...]
Balthazar:
Gain: Holy damage, +Movement Sped.
Counter: Direct damage
[...]

More damage to undead is just a nice extra due to their weakness to holy damage. But it counters damage thanks to the extra armor.
The gain is holy damage, great against partial armor bonuses (vs elemental, vs fire, vs piercing, etc), since there are no skills that give extra armor vs Holy, and holy is not elemental nor physical.

What is true is that:
- Balthazar, Melandru and Grenth change damage.
- Balthazar, Melandru do also something else.

The thing is... "Unblockable vs Enchanted foes + Cold damage" compares to the rest of the Forms...?
Unblockable is nice... but there are more skills other that Enchantments.

Karate Jesus · Oct 03, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The thing is... "Unblockable vs Enchanted foes + Cold damage" compares to the rest of the Forms...?
Unblockable is nice... but there are more skills other that Enchantments.

Exactly my point. They nerfed AoG because it was over-powered in PvP and I'd bet that they intentionally nerfed it into oblivion (like Smiter's Boon, just not quite as bad). However, it's been a long time since then and this avatar is still shit. He needs to be fixed and should be fixed in the next skill update.

Comparatively, he just doesn't stack up to the other avatars, which is unfair. End of story.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

The other day, I got a different idea for Grenth. Although it avoids the concept of Enchantments all together, I think it can work for a rebalance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by myself

[Avatar of Grenth]:

PvE Version:
15e, 2s, 30r

(10...74...90 seconds.) Your attacks deal cold damage and steal 0...5..10 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

PvP Version:
20e, 2s, 30r

(10...74...90 seconds.) Your attacks deal cold damage and steal 0...3...5 life per successful hit with an attack skill. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Does cold damage and steals life. Although it is similar to Dwayna in that it heals you, it also is different in that it gives more damage to your opponent.

Karate Jesus · Oct 03, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Yea, I've seen something like that posted before by several people. I was just trying to go with something unblockable since that's what they've done with it already.

Either way, something needs to change.

Tyla · Oct 03, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I'd rather see it kept the same in PvP and changed in PvE. (I'd like to see the same done to Avatar of Balthazar too. It looks cool, but its effect just plain sucks and is achievable by non-elite means.)

For a PvE effect:

For 10...70 seconds, your attacks deal cold damage. When you use an attack skill steal 1...30 life and remove one enchantment.

Iunno, something fun to toy with I suppose. Looks kinda imba too but meh, I really can't be arsed thinking it over.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I would say reduce the time to the old Grenth standard for your suggestion Tyla, but with Eternal Aura, it won't matter.

Reduce the life steal to my setting (1...5...10 *attributes:0...12...15*) and it would be fine I think. At least a lot less imba.

Oh, and you forgot the "Disabled for 120 seconds."

Joe Fierce · Oct 04, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I'd rather see it kept the same in PvP and changed in PvE. (I'd like to see the same done to Avatar of Balthazar too. It looks cool, but its effect just plain sucks and is achievable by non-elite means.)

For a PvE effect:

For 10...70 seconds, your attacks deal cold damage. When you use an attack skill steal 1...30 life and remove one enchantment.

Iunno, something fun to toy with I suppose. Looks kinda imba too but meh, I really can't be arsed thinking it over.

imba + pve = best friends, no problems there.

honestly, the sad thing is, aside from the ol melandru, the avatars are shite compared to the other elites in the class, which is why they are overlooked.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 04, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I don't know what you're talking about, I only use the avatars. But that may be because I just like changing shapes... :3

Or... it could be because I hardly play my dervish and don't care enough on him to make non-avatar builds.

Avarre · Oct 04, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Idk which one of the two it got nerfed for, but it wasn't for both, that I know.

It was nerfed for being one of the most imbalanced and game-breaking skills in all of organized PvP. You know there's a problem when teams call AoG with 'godmode going up on player X!'

A PvE-only buff would be fine, though.

Karate Jesus · Oct 05, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It was nerfed for being one of the most imbalanced and game-breaking skills in all of organized PvP. You know there's a problem when teams call AoG with 'godmode going up on player X!'

A PvE-only buff would be fine, though.

It was sick and imbalanced at one time, you're right. If all they did was buff the PvE version and fix the cold damage in PvP, I'd be happy.

All I'm saying is that it's time.

Avarre · Oct 05, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

All I'm saying is that it's time.

Pretty much. This is definitely one of the skills where the split would be useful, and we might as well be making use of it.